Showing posts with label Babylon. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Babylon. Show all posts

Sunday, 17 November 2024

Sunday Watching


Daniel 12;1-3
‘At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people – everyone whose name is found written in the book – will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.'

Daniel, living and working for the regime in Babylon at the time, continued to stand for his God Yahweh.  He had faced opposition yet continued in faith in the living God.  At time the Lord himself gave him messages, prophecies, for the people around him and for the world in general, that is you and I.  This is one such.
One day the life around us will end, Jesus will appear, and our world will be seen to belong to the creator Yahweh after all.  Our conception of life will end and he will be seen to be Lord of all.

Mark 13:1-8
'As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, ‘Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!’ ‘Do you see all these great buildings?’ replied Jesus. ‘Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.’ 
As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, ‘Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?’ Jesus said to them: ‘Watch out that no-one deceives you. Many will come in my name, claiming, “I am he,” and will deceive many. When you hear of wars and rumours of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth-pains.'

Jesus himself made clear the biblical story.  God created the earth and the heavens, through him, and one day will reclaim ownership.  Not only has he used a nation, the Hebrews, to teach the word about himself, though they failed, the Son of God, fully God and fully man, arrived on earth to take the wrath for our sinful natures on the cross, so opening a way to reconcile us to him who has no sin.  
We tend to see Jesus as weak and 'nice,' while he is in fact none of that.  Much of what he said was in anger against wrongdoing because he is Holy.  His Love shows in that he is patient and forgiving, but still will judge us one day for all our actions.  
The only way to safety is via the Cross of Christ, yet we look elsewhere.  Those who's names are found in the 'Book of Life' will be those who turn to Jesus now.  The end will come so we may as well be ready.  Life is for living and Jesus came to bring abundant life.  Let's take it now.
 
 
I made use of the day by watching as many football matches as possible.  All were dreich!  None worth the money I did not pay for them.  However, by using Viaplay International all watched so far had no commentator to babble nonsense all the way through.  This is good!  It is time all games had a switch to prevent us hearing these talkatike indivisuals and allow us to see the game properly I say.

Sunday, 7 July 2024

Sunday Meditations

Still stuck indoors, this time because my arm aches from that fall and I resist the joy of walking in the rain to meet people.  So, I read the sheet for today and fine three interesting, possibly connected readings.  I say possibly because the reading follow the Anglican liturgy and these do not always make sense to me, they do not always fit together, so why use them I say?

Anyway, in Ezekiel 2:1-5 we see the young man respond to coming face to face with God.  Not unnaturally he falls on his face.  The supernatural reality of God is often ignored by many.  Their God is one cut down to a size that fits their understanding.  Sadly, our God is way beyond us and we, the created creatures, have to face that reality and bow down to his supernatural being.  How marvellous that that being is 'Love,' otherwise we would all have been destroyed long ago.  
The meeting with God is not accidental, Ezekiel did not 'just happen to be in the area at the time.'  No, this was God calling on a man he knew thoroughly and to whom he would give a task.  God knows all about those he calls.  Nothing about us can surprise him now.
Ezekiel's job was simple.  Here he was in Babylon, miles from Jerusalem where the people had been sent after God called the Babylonians to destroy the city in 586 BC.  Yet the strange thing was the Israelites did not consider they had done anything wrong!  Sin was not recognised and the move to Babylon was not understood as punishment, in spite of what the prophets had told them.  
Now Gods call was to Ezekiel to speak to an 'obstinate and stubborn people' as Gods prophet, and he would know what had happened to previous prophets!  Abuse and even death for some.  He is being sent to a rebellious people who will not listen.  How is that for a job description?  'See those people, they will not listen, but go speak to them and be rejected anyway,' says God.  Of course you might get hurt...
The thing is Ezekiel obeyed.
Mark 6:1-6.  The thing about leadership is a good leader goes first into any battle.  He does not ask his men to do what he has not done or is unwilling to do, he leads from the front.  Having sent prophets to the people at the right time God takes human flesh and walks among us himself.
He now takes on the responsibility of confronting sinful rebellious people face to face, and even worse, he does this among those he grew up with in Nazareth.  
The Mark passage is very short and does not contain the passage read by Jesus in the synagogue.  Isaiah 61.
'The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me, because the Lord has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor.  He has sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners.' 
Jesus then stated this passage has been fulfilled today, something which astonished them, but then his words indicated he would also bring in the Gentiles.  This led to a reaction, mentioning his background as a mere carpenter and now telling them he was something great!  The gentile bit was the end for them.  They attempt to kill him but he walks through them and leaves.  A prophet is without honour is his own house indeed.  His family did not support him at the time.   
The supernatural God appearing as a man, not quite the messiah they expected, and talking about the gentiles was not a good way to make friends in such a village.  Jesus of course would have expected a reaction, did he not know them, but he was surprised just the same at their lack of faith.  I wonder if this indicates their faithfulness to the Jewish faith up to that time?
Note how Jesus obeyed the call to preach. 
Mark 6:7-13.  Jesus moves on but sends out his 12 disciples two by two, with clear instructions.  He gave them power over demons, power to heal the sick, and permission to preach repentance.  This was their chance to learn how to depend on the supernatural power of God rather than their own abilities.
They took nothing with them but God himself, and their needs would be met on the way.  What a lesson in apostleship!  Some would reject, some listen, some healed, some demons removed.  That is the world Jesus wishes all of us to participate in, not a s such preachers but in daily life.
Note how the disciples obeyed and went out.
Do I believe him?  Would I go out?
Do I trust him daily when in Tesco or on the bus?  Is this supernatural God not around when I need healing?  Or have I just not listened to him again?  And am I willing to be rejected by family, friends, and neighbours for following Jesus when the world is against him?


Thursday, 4 January 2024

Drink and Babylon!

 


I spent an enjoyable hour listening to a podcast from the 'National Archives.' 
I knew about these but only recently began to listen to them.  Today I listened to one from 2006.
Phillipa Glanville, from the V&A museum, discussing 'The Dichotomies of Drink.'  Very interesting this was too.  A clever woman, well researched, and clearly spoken, discussing drink from the late 1600s up until recent times.  The development of whisky taught me much I did not know, the growth of beer in its many forms, wine, political intrusion and responses to European wars, and the public response during difficult times.
Water being rough if not impure led to much beer drinking, of a  weak kind.  War in Europe led to sales of whisky and rum growing.  Drunkenness also grew alongside the increase in alcohol sales.  Who would have thought...?
A good Podcast, and well worth a listen and I suspect many more also.


This is a good book!
Good that is if you like reading about ancient Mesopotamia!
I do.
Paul Kriwaczek, a Viennese, was head of Central Asian Affairs at the BBC World Service for 25 years.  His wide knowledge of many languages no doubt aided his studies.  This book was published in 2010, a year before he died.
Beginning by comparing Saddam Hussein with the great leaders who had gone before him millennia ago helps us understand, he says, how life in the region continues in similar fashion since settlement began.  Human nature after all, does not change.
From Eridu in the south, where incoming peoples gathered around 5000 BC, through until the fall of Babylon to the Persians and the end of what the author calls the 'first stage' in civilisation, we follow the development of the various societies and indeed Pauls interesting, but not always correct thoughts on the matter.  
Paul was an intelligent and thoughtful man, however, some of his opinions were lacking in my view, indeed, somewhat idiosyncratic I would say.  His view on what was the 'Flood,' is worth reading, but somehow lacks substance to me.  
We hear of the rise of the Sumer super states, Ur and Uruk, the opposition from Elam, and the constant flow of peoples throughout time who eventually take over and, according to the author, continue the culture that they find.  
We read of Gilgamesh, and the various people who brought the rise and fall, and rise again, of Babylon and then Assyria.  Famous names such as Hammurabi pass by, less famous names come and go, leaving a mark in their day and going the way of all flesh into obscurity.  
Of course the rise of both Babylon and Assyria, and her fall, takes up some room.  Both, thanks to scripture, are renown in the west, though not accurately I suggest.  Paul describes the situation at various times attempting to enliven the image, he makes a story of the situation, often I found quite well, and throughout the book he remains easily readable, even I could understand the big words.
The study of those clay tablets covered in 'cuneiform' have offered us much detail on the life of people in the area.  This includes letters from a wife to her far off husband complaining about what he has taken with him on business, or detailing her efforts to sell the goods he has sent back from far off.  
It amazes me how much detail can be found, and it is exciting to consider how many thousands of these tablets have still to be translated.
We see the rise and fall of Assyria, her determination never to be put down again, resulting in her harsh treatment of those who resist.  Our author details also Assyria's harsh treatment of women, so harsh that it is possible to see how Islam can regard their treatment of women as protective!   
States cannot exist for ever under violence, eventually people rebel.  Babylon took over for a period, then the Persians ended this period of life.  Things were never the same again.
Ancient Sumer, and those that came after, developed the sciences as far as possible in their day.  Much of the maths known to the Greeks was already found in Ur and Uruk.  Architecture and art developed quickly, agriculture, in spite of mistakes, fed the people well, and life developed from Temple led authority governing an organised society, to a more 'free enterprise' world under the Kings.  The rich got richer and the poor remained poor as in all societies, but differing times had different responses to human need.
I liked this book, I disagreed with much of Pauls understanding of the situation, but I would wouldn't I?
This book is an easy read, full of information, offers a large reading list at the end, and is well worth spending time on.  Such a shame the author has passed on.


Sunday, 20 November 2022

Sunday Readings

Jeremiah: 23:1.  ‘Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of my pasture!’ declares the Lord. 2 Therefore this is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says to the shepherds who tend my people: ‘Because you have scattered my flock and driven them away and have not bestowed care on them, I will bestow punishment on you for the evil you have done,’ declares the Lord. 3 ‘I myself will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and will bring them back to their pasture, where they will be fruitful and increase in number. 4 I will place shepherds over them who will tend them, and they will no longer be afraid or terrified, nor will any be missing,’ declares the Lord.
‘The days are coming,’ declares the Lord,
    ‘when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch,
a King who will reign wisely
    and do what is just and right in the land.
In his days Judah will be saved
    and Israel will live in safety.
This is the name by which he will be called:
    The Lord Our Righteous Saviour.

Today's Sunday reading according to the CoE features Jeremiah and Luke.  Always one from the old and one from the new testaments.  
Sometimes the speakers follow them!
Not being able to make it today, a result of rain and rusty knees, I read these passages and guess what the visiting speaker today would have said.  This is difficult as I have no knowledge of him whatsoever.  Indeed, as I must acknowledge, I have no knowledge whatsoever!
One thing is clear from a quick reading here, as always it is not what we do, it is what God does that matters.  The leaders have failed, it is the Lord who takes action.  Sin is the problem, it is the Lord who deals with it, at least for those who repent. 
The Lord creates, the Lord leads, and when we follow life is indeed life abundant. This, unfortunately, does not imply it will be easy.  Christians suffer the usual diseases, famines, and life problems all others have.  Christians also have sin within and have to fight sin daily in themselves.  No 'Holy Willies' in the Christian Church.  They also walk contrary to the thinking of the world. This causes problems with governments who wish to follow the world or just be obeyed.  
This passage begins with a warning to those leaders in Jerusalem around 600 BC, he could just as easily have been speaking to the CoE Bishops now under the leadership of 'Stonewall,' and influenced by the worlds outlook rather than scripture truth.  I wonder if their attitude is because far too many have a middle class, well educated Oxbridge background, and have risen too fast and too far in ecclesiastical circles rather than spend time on the ground at parish level, thus being removed from the man in the pew?  Mixing only with our peers limits our understanding.  This leads to the flock being badly led, God will take a hand once again, in the CoE as he has done in the past.
The Jeremiah story is amazing.  A very reluctant young man, forced into a position he did not want, who stood up in public and proclaimed the 'Word of the Lord' to the unwilling citizens.  Jerusalem had fallen far from Yahweh.  From the King down corruption reigned, God forgotten, society ruined, murder, crime, corrupt judges, and few worshipping Yahweh. He spent many years loudly abused and opposed by the majority of the townsfolk, laughed at and ridiculed, and almost killed.  Yet he preached on until the end when he was proved right.  They still rejected him!  
Because all people agree with a course of action, this does not make it right.
The people of Jerusalem were attacked by the Babylonians.  They did not change their ways, and ten years later they were completely destroyed by the same Babylonians, and many were removed to Babylon itself, never to return.  The Lord had spoken.
The present Anglican church has many who seek God, however, instead of following scripture they preach 'Love,' and 'inclusion,' and avoid 'repentance.  Repentance, the giving our self over to follow Jesus.  The CoE will end badly.
As is the case so often, when the Lord speaks into a situation it does not confine itself to the time, the whole old testament is looking forward to the Lords dealing with the nature we all possess, the Self, the sin sick self that puts itself on the throne and ruins life for all others. 
I know about that.
Gods answer, 'The Lord, our righteous saviour.'

Luke 23:33.  When they came to the place called the Skull, they crucified him there, along with the criminals – one on his right, the other on his left. 34 Jesus said, ‘Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.’ And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.  35 The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, ‘He saved others; let him save himself if he is God’s Messiah, the Chosen One.’  36 The soldiers also came up and mocked him. They offered him wine vinegar 37 and said, ‘If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself.’  38 There was a written notice above him, which read: this is the king of the Jews.  
39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: ‘Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!’  40 But the other criminal rebuked him. ‘Don’t you fear God,’ he said, ‘since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.’ 42 Then he said, ‘Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.'  43 Jesus answered him, ‘Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.’

The Lord, a righteous saviour did arrive.   He came at a time when a 'Messiah' of some sort was expected.  He did not however, arrive as expected.  Born, probably in a cave used as a stable, round the corner from everyone else, out of sight.  Raised in an obscure, unimportant village way up north,  a mere jobbing builder of limited income.  Uneducated according to the 'Eton' standards of the Jewish leaders of his day, and a man indistinguishable from the crowd, yet here was the saviour.
After a short period teaching and encouraging repentance and faith in himself, this man from 'up north,' was then crucified by the Jewish leaders through the unwilling Romans.  Fear for their position, fear that he was the Messiah, and demonic activity saw to the death of Jesus of Nazareth.   
However, a closer reading of any of the gospel reports reveals Jesus, not as a victim of oppression but as one willingly laying down his self, taking the eternal punishment for the sinful nature we all share, and yet as he did so offering forgiveness and eternal life to all around him.  Few, while six in iron nails are thumped into their hands and feet would offer such forgiveness.  He was no victim like the two beside him, he was a man, fully God and fully man, laying down his life, his Self, for you and me, and all who would receive him.  
By this means God, Yahweh, had dealt with sin for all who come to him in repentance, that is those who change their ways and 'follow' Jesus.'  This is indeed a righteous saviour, one who did no wrong, upset those who do, and paid the punishment price for those unable to endure eternity separate from God.    
No wonder they sing songs like this...

Tuesday, 20 March 2018

First Day of Spring




Spring music for the official first day of Spring. 
Naturally the sun is shining and the wind is just above freezing, as it is in Spring.  All day people have walked around almost smiling as they considered the worst has passed.  Maybe they are right but as we know another day or two of snow and storm will appear before May.  



The weathermen use the 1st of March as the beginning of Spring for reasons unknown but this time of the year is when the hemispheres share the change over, in the north Spring begins while in the south Autumn arrives.  I read that the cuneiform tablet shown above speaks of this event.  This dates form around 3000 years ago, most likely from Ashurbanipal's library in  Nineveh, Assyria.  
The King liked to gather information that would help him run his kingdom, he lasted around 40 years and built up a large Assyrian Empire so he learnt well.  This king not only gathered information it is possible he was academically inclined, unlike some of his kind.  As is the way he obtained high office when the legitimate heir died and he was selected to the position, a good decision it turns out.
The scribes and learned men in Babylon might not have thought so however, Ashurbanipal's desire to know more led him to take such men into Nineveh and make them write out all the knowledge they had.  To ensure they reluctant ones did so he chained them there until they had furnished him with knowledge.
The Babylon folks did not take kindly to their northern neighbours and once Ashurbanipal had gone the Assyrian Empire went into decline.  Another couple of Kings later and an uprising from the south saw an end of the Assyrians empire making for good.  


Down there in far off Mesopotamia (the land between two rivers) the people five thousand and more years BC were happily working out the earth was round, the times table and other difficult maths (they taught the Greeks) and building high Ziggerat temples and other buildings, often just from mud brick, long before most of us considered such things important.
Staring up into the sky their 'Magi' would soon learn the movement of the stars and planets (would they know the difference I wonder?) and interpreting the movements as indication of events on earth.  They would not tell you a 'tall dark man will come to your door on Tuesday' however that is the stuff of girlies magazines not the real world.  Clear skies in the night sky would allow a wonderful panorama above and these men would quickly learn the change of the seasons.  Their understanding from away back is still relevant today (they gave us '60' for minutes in the day) and recognising Spring would be a reason for a celebration I would think.
Spring is here, the skies are bluer, the early morning brighter, now we can enjoy it as the weather improves.


Wednesday, 6 December 2017

Book


It gives me a strange satisfaction to find that I have finished another book that sits on the pile in front of me.  That pile anyway is one less the other piles of books still to be read have not gone down much.  
I have always liked Henry Canova Vollam Morton in spite of his rather bullish nature.  I suspect that is a requirement in journalism and he got off to a good start not only by being the son of an editor but by announcing the scoop of Tutankhamen's tomb being opened before the 'Times' man who had the rights could do so.  He then became famous for his travel books, around London then England, Scotland and elsewhere.  In the 30's he travelled through the Holy Land, a much easier enterprise then than now as the British Mandate allowed travel across borders in a manner impossible today.  Having discovered books about Jesus and Paul sold well he then decided on a further expedition in the late 30's. 

'While I was travelling in the Holy Land...the desire grew on me to make a Christian pilgrimage from the Euphrates to the Nile, and into Sinai, and to tell the story of the Christian life of the Near East,'

It had nothing to do with making money, honest guv. 
I looked forward to this book as I love the ancient lands, especially those usually ignored in the far south of what is today Iraq, the ancient land of 'Sumer,' often classed as 'Babylonia.'   It was a book I wished to read years ago.


Landing at Alexandretta in French controlled Lebanon Morton travels to Aleppo the town today thrashed by civil war intending to visit once popular pilgrimage sites including the pillar upon which sat one Simon Stylites Simon early chose a severe form of asceticism which saw him barred from monastic life and he ended up sitting high up on his pillar apart from the world, continuing his austere life but constantly queried by people wishing answers to problems.  He remained there for 37 years.  I must say while many followed him or ventured into monastic or hermit style life I see no biblical reason for this and wonder about those who chose this life.  Morton appears fascinated by them and as he travels follows his normal routine of discovering historical connections with each place, some of these are intriguing and others just worrying!


Continuing to Palmyra an ancient city made famous by ISIS destroying it Morton came upon a bus! 
Intrepid travellers who hitch a lift from a sheik (or claim to - he is a somewhat romantic writer) then discover a bus that just happens to have stopped to pick up passengers in Palmyra are doing very well I say. 
The Nairn Transport Company began in 1923 when a couple of New Zealanders who had served there during the war began a car service between Haifa and Beirut.  By the late thirties they were driving cars and then buses across the desert roads from Baghdad to Damascus.  The French and British authorities were delighted as many personnel were thus able to travel the vast distances in some degree of comfort, camels can be a bit slow.  
Half way across they stopped at Rutba Fort and eat an English dinner in an impeccable English dining room in the middle of the desert, this brought out the xenophobia in Morton!  The Empire had some advantages.
In Baghdad Morton again waxes lyrical about English influence on Iraq especially when he notices an 'English' bookshop.  What sort of 'English' bookshop would have the name 'MacKenzie' above the door escapes me.  It does appear British influence was stronger in Iraq that French influence in Syria, at least according to our author.
In Baghdad he watches from the window, lights out, of the Shia flagellantes as they pass by late at night.  The house belongs to Chaldean Christians, a type almost unknown now after years of needless war.  Morton is fascinated by the intricacies of these worshippers marching by slowly and as he does elsewhere goes into details we often see on our TV, if the news can show many dead alongside.

 
From his hotel our hero takes a taxi to Babylon passing the noticeable railway station 'Babylon Halt.' 
Clambering over the then dusty mounds he appraises the mud brick remains and reminds the reader of the biblical history found in Jeremiah where in 586 BC the people of Judah were taken to Babylon.  The fact that Jews have been found in this are up to recent times speaks much of their ability to live alongside other faiths.  Since the Great War however Jews, and most Christians have fled this apart of the world leaving a huge Moslem space almost devoid of any other.  British, French and now US policy has done this and with Trump topping it off today by recognising Jerusalem as capital of Israel another step down may have occurred.  Jerusalem will never be like Babylon however it will suffer more warfare and terrorism, possibly sooner rather than later.   
This to me is the most interesting part of Morton's book.  Babylon then Ur of the Chaldees, again mud bricks and knowledgeable guides, mostly educated when assisting archaeologists in times past, and fascinating history all combined to make me wish to travel there today.  The ease Morton travelled in his day compared to now appeals but I suggest tourism might be possible but costly.

 
For me the book descends into a rather boring read once Morton arrives in Egypt.  While there are some interesting episodes, such as taking a ferry which turns out to be a sinking small boat that slowly struggles to get anywhere, for the most part his many, oh so many descriptions of Coptic Churches, monasteries and their monks and the tales of so called 'saints' from the distant past did not dwell well with me.
The flamboyant Coptic ceremonies may well go back into the distant past, well until about the 400's and hermits and monks may well consider they are seeking salvation by their lifestyles but to me there was a sad outlook for them at that time.  I am not convinced God calls people to live like this, I am not one for fancy outfits or bejewelled clergy and I have no need to live on the hard black bread these monks lived on, the Coptic clergy appeared better fed.  
His visit to Mount Sinai was interesting and the monk with him also and the questions as to whether this is the mount or not is intriguing.  However we do not know for sure and if we did we would worship the mountain not the God!  This was a problem in the middle East in many places, saints are worshipped not the risen Christ.


At least in Rome our man found plenty of interest down in the five hundred miles of catacombs that lie there.  It is possible many famous early Christians mentioned in the letters of Paul may lie there, though it is not possible to be sure.  Certainly the history, the need to hide for the authorities (a bit like it is becoming today) and the sheer adventure of wandering in the near dark at that time through such places was enlivening the book.
Less so his adoration of the pope in all his splendour canonising saints.  The description reveals a side to Morton his womanising nature would find surprising.  Possibly it was ceremony he liked and the connection to history, that connection to history cannot be but joy to the bright mind, however while he knew his scripture we wonder how well he obeyed it no matter how many times he gets VIP seats in the Vatican.

The history from a man in the 1930's is always worth a look.  His fascination for ceremony much less so as is his fawning over 'saints' from the past.  Anyone who becomes a Christian becomes a 'saint' it merely indicates they are 'set apart for God' and not someone with a record of miracles once he is dead!  Morton's history is interesting, his writing style also.  Beginning with the transport and description of the area his book, divided into chapters within chapters, then visits something, description follows and the last small chapter describes the end of day or plan for moving on.
It is easy to understand how his columns in the London press became popular, it is easy to understand why his books still sell today, it is less easy to understand his thinking.  After writing a book on South Africa he moved there with his second wife and his diaries reveal the somewhat fascist ideas he held, his womanising and the flaws in his character.  What however I dwell on is the books he left these describe his world very well a world that no longer exists but is so close to us still today.